This is a written Transcription for the Leadership Hustle episode about Avoiding the Pitfalls of too Many “Yes” People in Your Organization, from Season 1 Episode 16.

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Andrea Frederickson: Hello and welcome to the Leadership Hustle. For executives whose companies are growing fast and need leaders who are ready. We all know people who never admit that they're wrong or rarely admit that they're wrong and maybe rarely ever admit the fact that they don't know something. Sometimes we realize that we hang out with people who are like ourselves. We have similar interests, we have similar hobbies and things like that. But have you ever thought about, in a business world, creating a team where people have similar interests and have similar perspectives is really a problem? Today, in this episode of The Leadership Hustle, we're going to talk about the problem with having a team that agrees. So just recently, Michel, this is our our episode about teams and the different things that teams do or don't do that make them really effective. And I was having this conversation with somebody and he asked me the question, Do you think that senior leaders tend to surround themselves with yes people? Yes, Yeah. And so it's like I had to stop and think. I'm like, you know, we we hire people who we like. Yeah, right, Yeah.

 

Michelle Hill: We hire people who we connect with. That connection is because we have stuff in common, right? It's a bias, but it, it's what most people a lot of people do.

 

Andrea Frederickson: And, you know, part of the issue is when we hire people that that we like, we also find people that have similar interests and similar similar qualities and similar similar characteristics. And the problem with that is there's no diversity in thinking and process and perspective. And so we you know, the issue of getting to the right answer or better answer is diminished. Now, I have people that will disagree with us on that. So, you know. Well, what's your perspective? Do you do you think that people you know, we hire people like ourselves and I agree.

 

Michelle Hill: We hire people like ourselves. I also believe that depending on the leader, owner, whatever title we want to put out there that's overseeing that organization, depending on their communication style, has a huge impact on whether or not, well, just their impact they have on the environment really determines whether or not people feel safe to speak up and disagree. Because I think when we we think alike. But we can still disagree. Right. And I mean, I'm not saying that's perfect, but when you have a as a as a leader and you have a room full of people, if people are just waiting for you to give them the answer, if people are just waiting and agree with your ideas, we're not probably at the best idea. The first idea is never the best idea. It's just getting something started and getting people to feel safe to to speak up and disagree or challenge that idea or want to understand more, or that dialogue can happen, whether it's between the leader and the team or team team members to across.

 

Andrea Frederickson: Right So so so just this morning I was working with a gentleman. We were doing some coaching and they just hired a new CFO. And he talked about, you know, at the CFO level, there's already some skills. You know, you've got some accounting skills, you've got some other things. So there wasn't a lot of of interview he said about the technical skills. What they were really interviewing for was culture. And so as I reflect on that word culture and I want your input on this, people use culture as code for they think like me, they think like us, they act like us. And so they really fit. And I'm really I'm really challenged by that, you know? Do you hear the same thing or is there, you know, are you hearing, you know, what is this culture thing mean from a perspective of agreement or disagreement?

 

Michelle Hill: Yeah, I do hear people that they'll be talking about. They just did some interviews and there's this one person that just headed off with a know. They're just so much like and they it just they were just moving in that direction. And one of the questions I had asked was, well, did they did they bring any points up that you saw differently? I mean, was there any sort of discussion? Because if they think just like you, how is that not going to help you in the future? Right.

 

Andrea Frederickson: So so this word culture is in its simplest form. It's really about how things get done around here, correct? Right. So do you have a team culture? Maybe business culture too, but specifically team culture where the way we work together, the way things get done around here is we don't debate. You know, when the senior leader brings something or we don't push back. If a member of the team says something that we don't agree with because we don't want to hurt their feelings or we don't want them to talk bad about us, or we just don't want to rock the boat, it's not really worth it or. Or do you have a culture specifically that is, we invite debate. We invite contrarian perspectives on things. We ask that you ask the questions that need to be asked or even deliberately say, So what if the opposite were true? Or what if something else was different? You know, those are two. Those are both cultures, but very, very different.

 

Michelle Hill: Correct. And I would ask, what is the leader rewarding? What behaviors? So if I'm new to this team and I start noticing what their role modeling, their role, modeling ideas and debate and questioning, then as a new individual, I will start feeling like, Oh, I can do this and I'll feel it's safe. Right? Right. So but that that is the culture is how we work together, how we get things done. Do we intentionally create what we call team norms, Right. Which one of those team norms would be to intentionally disagree with each other? We need to debate. We need to have perspectives that don't always agree with each other. And even if even if you kind of like it, it's still we need to help each other, push each other to be better. But yeah, as that new employee, you pick up pretty quick on how people are behaving in the meetings that you're a part of and whether or not it's safe to speak.

 

Andrea Frederickson: Up and they're going to bring their history. So if it wasn't safe where they came from, they may carry that perspective with them. And so they may not say anything, even if it really is safe. So to make sure that we're inviting them. Yes. You know, as you were talking about this, I was reflecting on this friend that asked me the question, do leaders surround themselves with people like themselves and yes, people. And as I was thinking about when he asked me this question, I had to stop and think. I remember, you know, in our meetings, we really try to walk the talk in our meetings or in our in our work because we don't want to be hypocrites. Right? We're learning along in some cases or adjusting and becoming, you know, course correcting as we go through. But I remember in some of our our meetings, you know, maybe ten years ago where I would ask a question and people would start asking a little bit and I'd ask a question back. Well, one time one of the one of our team members came to me and said, Andrea, when you ask those questions, you've already made up your mind. And I just was, you know, stopped.

 

Andrea Frederickson: I'm like, What are you talking about? So and certainly body language, certain body language. Well, you know, I had to stop and think. And when she said that, I said, you know, me thinking and me disagreeing had the same exact facial expression. And I literally don't know if I have my mind made up. I've already said I've already made up my mind, so let's poke holes in it, right? Or I'll say, I am not married to this idea. I need we need the debate. And you know, or even asking a person from one one person. So what do you think about this who's been very specifically quiet? You know, I had to stop and think about how was I putting out body language that people were interpreting as unsafe. And so I think that, you know, we are believers of our leaders have blind spots, right? That we have to stop and think. But what are some of the things that maybe leaders can do to help promote a team that is more willing to challenge each other? I mean, I know there's all kinds of ideas, but just off the top of your head, give me 1 or 2 that that you can think of.

 

Michelle Hill: Well, I think one goes back to what I've already mentioned, the role modeling and asking for the questions, I think, too, is getting feedback from your people about what are things that I do that could be misunderstood. So if I this morning in the meeting I said X and everyone was quiet. What was I doing right? It's being vulnerable in front of them and asking them for for things that maybe it's the blind spots that we don't see or recognize that we're doing right. And then I think the third goes back to part of that is the team norms. We've got to talk about what is really important with how we work together so we can be successful. Because even if we create a safe place, you're going to have people like you mentioned that come with baggage and their past. They weren't, you know, there was consequences for speaking up. So there are going to be a little more conditioned to not speak up. You're also going to have personality styles that naturally just don't want to rock the boat. They want everyone to be happy. And let's not disagree with anyone because I might hurt your feelings, right? So we have to also recognize where are our people, what some of the baggage, you know, get to know them, build that trust, but also recognize what their personality is and talk about. Let's set some goals because I need you to speak up. And so what do you need from me before meetings that will help you be more confident in and comfortable with challenging different people in the room?

 

Andrea Frederickson: Right? Right. You know, one of the things that that we add to our meetings is, okay, so if this if this is what we believe today, if someone were to come in here and disagreed with us, what would they disagree with us on? Or what other kinds of what other perspectives do we need to come up with or what other possibilities could there be in the way this could be handled or the way that we could solve this or someone else's perspective? And so intentionally looking at it from other people's lenses, but giving people permission, let's do this together, right? And when we do that, then it's not like Andrea against Michel. And it's like, Well, Andrea thought this and Michelle thought that. And you have this little head shake thing that we do and we're kind of snotty, but.

 

Michelle Hill: Well, and I think, too, a little bit about that safe environment as that leader in the room, it's like, let's not tell them what we think first at times as.

 

Andrea Frederickson: Much as good.

 

Michelle Hill: Idea, right, As much as we can. Because oftentimes and you and I both have been in other meetings with with in other companies, and you sit in that meeting and whoever the leader is of that meeting there right away, this is the problem. I'm going to solve it. And everyone else is like, okay, right. And it's like, okay, now let's what do you think? What ideas do you guys have? Right? And that really is about creating that environment where people start engaging in the solution, not just going along with the person who has more authority. Right?

 

Andrea Frederickson: And and these concepts can have happen one on one during one on one conversations, not just team meetings, but the other part that, you know, sometimes we're afraid to have these conversations face to face. Sometimes they happen over email. But one of the things we have to recognize is what is the unintended consequence later that people either don't realize are preventing others from from speaking up. For example, there's the meeting outside the meeting. So if there's 3 or 4 of us, we're having a conversation, we're debating. You and I are fine because of the debate, but somebody else was feeling a little uncomfortable. So now they're talking to somebody that's like, Oh my gosh, you see Michelle and Andrea going out? It was like they weren't going at it. We were simply just really challenging the concepts of each other and recognizing that at the end of that, we don't dislike each other. We might not have liked the ideas each other had, but we don't dislike each other. And at the end of the conversation we can go have a beer, right, and be over with it, right? And so, you know, just opening up the idea that let's make sure we have the team norms right. Let's make sure that we recognize people's personalities, that some people are going to feel more comfortable than uncomfortable. But at that senior level, you need to figure out how to be comfortable or less uncomfortable and speak up in those scenarios. Make sure that we're asking those that we lead what are our tells? What are those things that we our body language, our our reactions to certain things that people might misinterpret that we might have to say? I'm thinking I'm not disagreeing. Right. It's the same.

 

Michelle Hill: Look. Yes. Yeah. It's talking more about what our intentions are and what we're doing, what we're doing because our body language and facial expressions might be off.

 

Andrea Frederickson: And then recognize that even after the conversation or after the meetings, talking about it and talking about anybody else, which is drama, that's a whole nother episode, right? Doesn't help make the team a solid team. And so we really, you know, we really do like to hang out with people who have like minds and like interests and things like that. But truly a solid team that really works well and helps your company move forward really does need to have people who are willing to debate and to disagree.

 

Michelle Hill: 100% that diversity in thought. Yeah.

 

Andrea Frederickson: Thanks for joining us on this episode of The Leadership Hustle. Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss another episode.