This is a written Transcription for the Leadership Hustle episode about How Layers of Management Can Lead to Manager Failure, from Season 1 Episode 20.

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Andrea Frederickson: Have you stopped to think about adding layers to your organization and how that is costing you money? In this episode of The Leadership Hustle, we're going to talk about the layers that you add and the support staff that you add to the company, and how it is costing you time and money from delivering on your promises. Hello and welcome to the Leadership Hustle. For executives whose companies are growing fast and need leaders who are ready. So today we're talking about layers of management. And when when we talk about these layers of management, I often think about how. Managers, leaders of leaders. So the top layers of companies, they was like, yeah, we're going to add this person or we're going to put this layer in the organization. And I always have to stop and ask them, like, why? Because the truth of the matter is, every time you add management and layers of management and even to some degree support staff, we're taking away time and therefore money away from not only the people who are delivering to your customer, but we're also taking away time and money from every layer that is below them. And people look at me like, how could we be doing that? And and the bottom line is, every time you add a layer, you're taking away time to read emails and time to sit in meetings and time to accomplish projects and project management and dealing with drama. And the reality is, you know, I'm a big fan of flat organization. And so, you know, let's let's talk a little bit about, you know, are you hearing that there are there are companies adding layers to organizations. Are you hearing that and what are the consequences that you're hearing?

Michelle Hill: Well, yeah, I mean, when you when you look at an organization and I've worked in a very flat organization in my previous career, it's it's not about necessarily I wouldn't say even the number of people. It's that ratio of frontline to supervisor manager. And when you increase layers, you're not reducing that ratio of anything. You're adding more individuals that regularly report to a supervisor that now reports to another layer, that now reports to another layer, and you get a lot of this gray, like a lot of uncertainty who's doing what. But you also end up with that frontline supervisor or manager or whatever title people choose to use varies from company to company. But you end up leaving them with a. And this is what I'm bumping into a lot. It's that 12 to 20 frontline staff reporting to one supervisor. And physically, how can that particular supervisor truly be managing, developing, coaching 20 people and really help those individuals follow through with the promises that we've made to our consumer, our member, our customer, whatever we want to call that that that end individual, right?

Andrea Frederickson: When when you add layers. We were just as we were discussing this, this topic before we got on camera. People are having conversations where there are layers of management and the layers above the direct supervisor, direct manager, whatever you want to call them, get involved in emails. They might be carbon copied on something, but they start interjecting themselves into the conversation. So now the person who's receiving the email, receiving the information, doesn't know who they're supposed to be reporting to. So this hierarchy, which I understand hierarchy. But when you start adding layers, we are taking away the valuable time of the most the layer most close to the customer. Right. So let's let's just break this down just a little bit more frontline. What we're asking them to do is deliver on the promises that the company has promised and the expectations of the the customer. That's what they're supposed to do. And any time we take away from that, the manager managers must be adding more value than they're taking away. But we don't think about the value we're adding. We're thinking, oh, we just need to communicate to them, oh, we just need to tell them this. Oh, we just need to follow up on this. Oh, we just need to and we typically do that in email form or meeting form. Right. So we're taking away time and and resources from delivering that. Now if that manager can find ways to deliver that content where it doesn't take away from them delivering on their promise or to help them deliver better on their promise value add right. You add another layer on top of that manager.

Andrea Frederickson: And now that manager is trying to coach frontline manager, and that frontline manager is coaching the person who's directly responsible to the customer. Now we've got multiple layers of emails, we've got multiple layers of meetings, and we're getting people that are confused. So this now reply to all to all their communication and they're spending way too much time responding to email. I just had a woman that I'm coaching calculate she's got a tracking system on her computer, on how much time she's spending on email versus her face to face, versus simply responding versus a writing versus responding. Emails. Email has consumed the amount of time that she that she's spending on what's going on, and she's spending very little time doing the thing that she wants to do and needs to do, which is the face to face coaching or the listening and giving immediate feedback or the just in time conversations, but instead responding to emails. But people get so frustrated because they are not getting response to their email, right? So they're not getting an answer. So this, this, this problem is occurring. So when we say we're causing our frontline managers to fail, the amount of time that they're spending consumed by email and meetings is crazy. So what kinds of things are you suggesting or offering to those that we coach so that we can help them spend less time on this email, roller coaster or meetings? Death by meetings kind of life. How can we help them be better, and how can we help them spend more time doing the coaching that they need to be doing? Any suggestions? Well.

Michelle Hill: A couple of things that you know, I'll talk to them about is, is looking at first just really kind of evaluating the number of that ratio, the number of people and having conversations if that number seems skewed and what's realistic. But the second piece is looking at the emails and and really challenging them on. Are they working on the things that they should be working on those high payoff activities, or are they doing things that maybe they did at a previous level in the organization, and they brought it with them? So that first is just really kind of that time study, kind of like you were talking about with with her in her email. It's, it's looking at where is she or he truly spending their time and whose responsibilities is it really? Is it is it theirs or is it something they just haven't let go yet or fully delegated? Agreed? Handed off with authority like this is yours. This is where it really belongs. So that's that usually is one of the first things is just kind of getting a gauge. And really what is reality versus how they feel. The second would be looking at developing your people. So then once you gauge, you know, what are those things that you should be delegating, right? Then it's who do you delegate to. So then diving into skill level, do we have a matrix or something that helps you identify, especially with that number of people assuming they have a lot, you know, identify really what are their skill levels and what are those opportunities for growth and helping pull yourself back to, to make sure you're not always leaning on the same people that you're really leaning on everyone in different ways to develop them differently.

Michelle Hill: So diving into the different opportunities for delegating, and that delegating also includes meetings. So people don't oftentimes think about, oh, I can't delegate a meeting. But yes, you can because let's take a look at why are you there. What is the purpose? What would be the benefits and value of someone else going know? Is it developing a relationship that they don't have? Is it hearing information that they don't normally have access to and helping them create their presence as well? Right. And and simply coaching them through that process of what is it they need to go with prepared, what do they need to bring back, involve you in, when do you need to be updated, and so forth. So looking at that delegation from a tactical project component to even your emails, instead of responding to emails, do you delegate those emails into whom? And then that third is going to be delegating the meetings, right? So that typically, you know, unless we're working with an organization and looking at how to restructure them, we have to work with what what we have in our control and how do we best help the person we're coaching.

Andrea Frederickson: So let's talk a little bit about those meetings. And outlook has a default. That's 30 minutes. And you can there are 30 minute increments. And yet people get into habits of creating meetings where it's like it's always going to be an hour long or half hour long and things like that. The point is, when you get a meeting invitation, what? Why do you accept it? Is it because you have a fear of missing out? Is it that someone is just sending it to you and they have authority over you? Are you asking the question? What is the purpose of the meeting? What is it that we're trying to accomplish? What do I need to have to be prepared to be there? Otherwise, we're having a meeting to have a meeting. And so we're wasting time. And that wasting time is 30 minutes to 60 minutes of. I could be doing some more coaching. I could be doing some more educating and training and things like that. Second of all, when we people get into this, this they get caught up in, well, I know I should be training my people, but I'm caught in responding to emails and having meetings. So now it's, you know, what comes first, the chicken or the egg kind of thing.

Andrea Frederickson: And so we're truly not asking you to just, you know, stop going to meetings or we're truly not asking you to delegate all your meetings. We're truly asking you to take a few minutes and make this a high payoff activity where what you're doing is saying, is it necessary? And in order for it to be valuable to me and to us, what is my role and what are the expectations? And can we do this in 15 minutes? Can we do this in 20 minutes? Do we need to meet every week, or do we need to meet every other week or once a month and truly asking the question not to be a jerk about it, but simply to change the cadence to be something of value. And I think that we're afraid to ask people who are above us these questions and in many cases, those who that we report to are just in a regular rhythm or a routine, their cadence or habits. And so by asking those questions, we might be able to save a half hour here, a half hour there, and then decide, what are you going to do those with those half hours. Yes.

Michelle Hill: Well, and even outlook, you can set it up where you can make the increments 15 minutes. Technically I think it defaults to 30 minutes or an hour, but I think that's the other thing I do challenge people with is why? Why do you have to be at that meeting and what's the agenda? What do you have to prepare for? Is this if you're just there to provide information, can you just come in during the appropriate 15 minute window or whatever to provide that information and leave? Is it beginning or end or what what that might look like, you know, kind of just challenging them to ask the person who's invited them, why am I why me if it's not clear and obviously what's the agenda? And then depending on what it is, why them even asking for? Can I send so and so or can I, can I just appear for that time. Right. And I can be available. But let's say questions come up. And the reason you're I'm there is because you want me to answer on the spot questions if they come up. Okay, well, why don't you just let me zoom in or even though we're in the same building, I can be working at my desk or I can be working on something. I'll have the time block so I can't do something else, but I'm available if you need me at that time. It's. It's just getting a little more creative with how we're spending our time, but also those existing habits, because we do get into that just, oh, I got to go, got to do this whole thing. And we don't challenge to do things differently.

Andrea Frederickson: You know, this this episode is truly about our the layers of management, truly adding value to the layer that's below them. And I, I really do question the fact that managers are not asking themselves that question. They're simply going through motions. They're they're thinking that they have to have these meetings or they have to incorporate respond to this email and they have to do all of these things. And it's like sometimes we have to stop doing certain things and really challenge ourselves. The purpose of this layer of organization in the organization is to do what is it to educate? Is it to make sure that the customer facing folks are adding value and delivering on those promises? Is this layer, or is this position to create research so that someone else doesn't so they can make good decisions at a different layer in the organization? But I see too many organizations where they add layers of, of, of people and management and other support roles that they're busy. They're very busy. In fact, they're over busy. And yet the point is, are they truly adding value to those client and customer facing employees? So I really want this episode to be just a quick I just want us to have this quick conversation about our your layers of management, busy and capable of doing the high payoff activity for that particular level.

Andrea Frederickson: And are they adding value to the layer below them, or are they adding more confusion? Are they adding more tasks that are unnecessary? Are they going through the motions because. Is there afraid of missing out or that they are just in the habit? They don't want to disappoint someone and yet they're truly not adding value. So, audience, I'm really challenging you to take a look at the layers of your organization and maybe even the role that you're in and ask, what value am I providing to those that I lead? And if I'm truly not, if that activity truly is not adding value, but it's more of a habit, I probably need to question whether it needs to be done. Thanks for joining this one. This episode of The Leadership Hustle. Please make sure you subscribe so you don't miss another episode.