This is a written Transcription for the Leadership Hustle episode about Unlearning so you can Learn Better, from Season 1 Episode 27.

Listen to the full episode below, or click here to listen on your podcast platform of choice.

Andrea Fredrickson: Have you been in a leadership role for a while and think you had those leadership lessons learned in this episode of The Leadership Puzzle? We'll discuss the curse of knowledge and what to do about it. Hello and welcome to the leadership puzzle for executives whose companies are growing fast and need leaders who are ready. How many years have you been in some kind of leadership management role?

 

Michelle Hill: I would. Or can I take it? I prefer not to say.

 

Andrea Fredrickson: Okay, let's let's say it this way. You and I have been in leadership roles for decades. Yes. One of us for decades and the other now. That being said, the people that we're talking about could be our age. Yes. All right. And our topic really is about I'm learning to be a better manager, to be a better leader.

 

Andrea Fredrickson: And people like, why do I need to unlearn to be a better leader? I'm already a leader. Well, you have positional leadership.

 

Michelle Hill: Yes. Yes.

 

Andrea Fredrickson: But does that retire.

 

Michelle Hill: Or it'll.

 

Andrea Fredrickson: Mean that people are choosing to follow you because leadership is given whether you have the title or not. Right. And so in today's episode, I think what's really fun about this is we get to do a little bit of a history lesson, and then what we get to do is do the the fun stuff. So with our history lesson, most of the leadership theories and the way people are organized and companies and hierarchies and budgets and things like that were established in the second Industrial Revolution. So just for those of you who don't remember your history lesson, that's over 100 years ago, and we're still doing some of the same crap.

 

Michelle Hill: A lot of the same stuff.

 

Andrea Fredrickson: And so I also, you know, as as I think I reflect back, I think about the books that have leadership development and management philosophies and things like that. They they refer to things that have been in other books and have been carried around for generations. And yet. And don't make it right. It does not make it right. So I thought let's let's talk a little bit about how these habits get into our head. The way we manage is the way we manage and lead today is based on habits. Yes. So as long as you've been in that role, you're doing something over and over and over again. It creates a habit, right?

 

Michelle Hill: Yes. And it's probably learned from maybe who you observed if you had any training. Right. If you read in the books or listen to a podcast, I mean, there's a series of things.

 

Andrea Fredrickson: But so if they're doing certain things over and over again, there's some you know what? What's the benefit of just. Well, I've been doing this way for years either, but it's.

 

Michelle Hill: The easy button.

 

Andrea Fredrickson: This is the frickin.

 

Michelle Hill: Easy button because I don't have a thing. I just do it. It doesn't take a lot of energy. It is literally the easy button.

 

Andrea Fredrickson: So it's just a habit if this happens and I do X and so I know that I need to establish what I want. And if I just set that every month, it's going to happen that automatically that's exactly what's going to work. And by the way, we like one on ones, but that doesn't mean that the one on one needs to be the same agenda or it doesn't mean that it only needs to be one on one once a month or that, you know, there's philosophies about one on ones like who's leading this meeting, which is that the leader who's leading the meeting or the employee who's leading the meeting. And so there's philosophies that never existed of having one on ones before, and now you're doing them, and now we're doing those. And now what? What does it look like? So, so looking back at these habits of of thought, I just I just remember the days when I was learning to be a manager leader and literally I didn't have a book. Nobody taught me. I mean, I'm holding what other people. And I was like or at work. I'm not going to do that. No. And then I try to be friends with people that didn't work in their own right. And so with the people that we coach. Michelle Hill: , you've got some classes right now where you have people who have been in management leadership roles for quite some time. What are some of the things that you find that would be helpful for them to unlearn that it's probably getting in the way of them being as successful as those they lead would like to be.

 

Michelle Hill: Well, I think what creates a lot of moments during those discussions is when we lean into more of the emotional intelligence, which we've talked a lot about. So I don't want to dive into that, but really getting into the human side of managing people. Right. Because a lot of times it can feel very transactional. And how we how we get things done and how we do things and all of the assumptions we make, we don't recognize all those things. And it's looking at the human perspective and how unique each person is and how people see things differently. That is, I think, where with people that I'm working with, they have probably the biggest moment and, and sometimes it's the techniques of maybe how to delegate who and so forth, because they've always just done it their way and really hadn't thought about the impact. So again, it gets back into the human side of things, but the impact our actions have, we make assumptions, assume people are going to feel a certain way when we do X or don't do X, and recognizing or realizing, shoot, you know, maybe I'm creating environment where people don't feel I trust them, I don't trust them because I don't delegate. That wasn't my intent. Right. There's more of these. I'm going to say these all these little But they really go back to the human side, not the tactical management thing.

 

Andrea Fredrickson: So, so. So let's go let's take that one step further and say so when people are individual contributors, they're doing lots of tasks, taking on tactical kinds of responsibilities. When you go to the next level of responsible party, many of them there's a management component and a leadership component, and we separate the two with managing resources, which is time and equipment and schedules and information versus leadership, which is leading people and coaching and challenging them and and giving them the feedback that they need to.

 

Michelle Hill: Really understand.

 

Andrea Fredrickson: The impact they're having. Right. Right. Yes. So what it sounds like is that people get good enough managing the resources, so they're directing. You need this. You need to take care of that. So there's a lot of.

 

Michelle Hill: Telling.

 

Andrea Fredrickson: A lot of tell, a.

 

Michelle Hill: Lot of problem solving on your own, not including others. And, you know, why would I include others? There's a lot of those just not necessarily involving people's views.

 

Andrea Fredrickson: And asking the question.

 

Michelle Hill: Yeah, what are they learning and what are how what is.

 

Andrea Fredrickson: Going to make it better.

 

Michelle Hill: Or.

 

Andrea Fredrickson: What could be different or is a more efficient way or whatever those kinds of things are. So people get into a rhythm of management because those above them expect them to manage those resources.

 

Michelle Hill: Yes.

 

Andrea Fredrickson: And yet the people that they report that report to them, they tend to want and feel the need for leadership. You know, I joke with with people when they say when they interview people. And this is a trick question, by the way, is okay, new prospecting employee, you know, like how do you want to be a manager? There's only one answer to this. I don't I don't want to be a manager. I want to be led. And so those who are moving up into the organization need to unlearn managing all those resources, teaching other people how to manage resources and leaders. Ability and recognizing that they can lead. But even the techniques of how to lead are so many.

 

Michelle Hill: Yes. And I think there's a difference, too, between that management and leadership as you elevate an organization. Excuse me. Most people hold on to what they're really good at. That's their safety zone. That's their comfort. And that tends to be tactical because that's what.

 

Andrea Fredrickson: I call black box.

 

Michelle Hill: Improvement. And that's probably what got him promoted because they're really good at X, right? I mean, I think sales is always a great environment to kind of show, you know, you've got the salesperson there rocking, hitting. Those numbers are doing great at this. So, left promote a sales manager. Well, they still want to be really good at the things and they really hold tight to the things they did really well at sales. The doer right? And that's where it's them unlearning. It's like, okay, it's no longer about you. It's no longer about you winning, no longer about you hitting those budget, those numbers. It's about you helping your people hit those numbers. So it goes you know, it goes into that managing the technical side and the emotional side. So that might be at that first level, I don't know, 5050 ish. But then if you get elevated again, you're even less involved in the tactical should be and more involved in the leadership. But what you find a lot of times as they continue to hold on to more of that in management, which can feel like micromanagement too at times. Right. Or I don't have choice enough freedoms right. Versus letting some of that go and increasing their skills of leading people and the emotional soft skills. And what are we doing in that futuristic and getting people to buy in? They're not hanging out there. They're more in the weeds.

 

Andrea Fredrickson: So there's a lady that I was coaching not that long ago and she had been promoted into a vice president role. So smart. This woman was incredibly smart. And so when when things were happening, I mean, she was the person who come in and go to solve the problem and she can tell people what to do and how people needed to to make things happen. But the reality is, when you get to this level in the in the company, her being the problem solver was not working very well. And so.

 

Michelle Hill: Things change.

 

Andrea Fredrickson: Telling her peers what to do, making, you know, she was telling the people that she led everything that they needed to do. And so she had an elevated herself to be the consultant or the coach or the educator of how people should. She was being the director, the dictator, the the taking the power and the authority, you know, to to make those things happen. And so as as we coach different individuals in their leadership role, one of the things that we often ask people to do is what do you need to stop doing? And they're like, they look at me like, what do you mean, what am I going to stop doing? Like, we can't stop doing anything. The thing that it's like, let's do a time study. Let's show show me what you're doing. Let's look at what are those things that it's like I'm answering emails. Well, let's peel back that in. Are those who should be getting those emails. You should be getting those emails. Are you coaching with those emails? Are you directing them with those emails? Are you getting into things you shouldn't get into with those emails? And so answering emails is not a bucket. Okay? There's a lot of buckets inside of, of that, of that area. So with time management, so you're not time management with a time study. Now we can start peeling back and finding out what is it that you actually do and is this why are you not having somebody else do that? Is it somebody else's job? Do they not know how to do it? Do you not trust them? Is a trust thing in your head or is a trust thing is because you haven't taught them? Yeah, right. You know, so so you know, this whole concept of you have a habit of doing what you do because it feels efficient.

 

Michelle Hill: And she's winning. She gets to feel good because she solve the problem. Possibly. But the other catch is as you elevate an organization, the tactical how we get things done sometimes changes from when you were down and in that right And so they you know they're making improvements they're making process right Process improvements are doing things a little different, maybe not totally different, but a little different.

 

Andrea Fredrickson: Right.

 

Michelle Hill: But then you come in dictating barking orders, solving problems, but you're solving problems the old way, not the current way. And then that actually creates an environment where people in that front line, they don't believe in you, they don't listen, and they're not going to follow you because you're giving advice. That's not even relevant to how we do things today. That might have been the old way, but that's not how we currently do it. And then someone else comes in in the middle, that middle manager, that poor middle manager who has another employee who has to clean up what you just said respectfully and lead and direct the team on things that they need to do, how we need to do it today. Right. And then that's a whole other.

 

Andrea Fredrickson: So so looking at this so one, we know where habits come from. The just by doing something over and over and over again and by doing something over and over and over again as a habit. But it doesn't make it right. It simply means that's just the way you do it or that's how you think of it. And there are things that are good that we do that we don't have to think about it. This is how I tie my shoe. I don't have to think about it, right? This is how I drive to work. I don't have to think about it. And yet when we get to the get to work, when we when we're doing the work that we need to when we're in a role of leadership, there is some amount of what we do that's management. And there's a lot, especially in the further we move up in the organization, that is leadership. And so I want to challenge all of the leaders out there who are listening to this podcast to think about, you know, are there are there the things that that you do, you know, with them? Let's say it's a meeting. Have you thought to ask the group that you meet with, is there a way to make this meeting more valuable? Does it need to be the same amount of time and would it be longer or shorter? But does it need to be the same amount of time? Do we have the right people here? Do we understand the intention or the purpose of this meeting and what would make it even better? It doesn't mean somebody people look at something ahead of time and then we discuss it. Or do we have the things looked at at a time and what is it that we're doing? Yeah. Is there a way to do our one on ones differently? Is there a different way to connect with people individually that works better for each person? You don't have to have it the exact same way with all of the people that report directly to you. So my challenge to you leaders out there is question what you're doing, not that the intention isn't right, but is there a different way to do it that might be more valuable? Maybe there are people that have opinions. There's podcasts like this that you can listen to. There are plenty of books out there. And don't forget the whole Internet thing. You know that people have all kinds of ideas and opinions, but what works best for the people you lead and you work with and you is different from person to person. And so we don't have to go back all the way back 100 years to the Industrial Revolution to find out how to to lead our people. If you are in, the leaders you work with are trying to update or modernize your leadership style, check us out at rebels group dot com and don't forget to subscribe so you never miss another episode.