What Happens When Leaders Don't Lead

This is a written Transcription for the Leadership Hustle episode about What Happens When Leaders Don’t Lead, from Season 1 Episode 13.

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Andrea Frederickson: What happens when leaders don't lead. On this episode of The Leadership Puzzle, we'll discuss some of the signs and symptoms of leaders who aren't leading. Hello and welcome to the Leadership Puzzle. For executives whose companies are growing fast and need leaders who are ready. Welcome to the next episode of The Leadership Hustle, where we work with leaders whose companies are growing fast and need leaders who are ready. Today, we are going to talk through this concept that we are noticing about leaders not leading. And I think that this is such an interesting subject because, you know, you and I work with leaders every single day. I mean, that's literally all we do, right? Yes. And so. Last week we were working with a client together and he was bringing up a subject of his executive team. We're getting ready to go into planning and he mentioned the concept that, well, when when there's tough decisions, you know, the decisions get thrown up to me and I have to be the bad guy to make all the decisions. Or what were some of the what were some of the other things?

Michelle Hill: Well, it was it doesn't even get brought to his attention necessarily. It just the decisions aren't being made. And he uncovers that stuff has not been decisions haven't been made. And then it actually pulls him into the weeds. Right.

Andrea Frederickson: Right. So let's talk about this whole idea of leaders not leading, which tells me that. People who are put in a position of leadership are not leading. They're maybe they're managing. Right. Maybe they're holding a chair. Right. But we've got folks who are really not leading. So what are some of the things that you are hearing that people aren't doing as it relates to the not leading side and not leading side of things?

Michelle Hill: I would say when I think of just recent conversations, not leading is going to involve not having the difficult conversations, which that has just been an ongoing and not having the difficult conversations and fear that that person might leave and or they didn't have it when they should have. And now it's now it's gotten big, right? The small little thing has developed and rippled and people around are noticing it as well. So now it becomes like, oh goodness, we got to do something right. And now they have to have a conversation and they're not wanting to do that. And then therefore that's where they're kind of shifting it off to. I've seen it shift off to HR, which  it's like HR is like, whoa, right? You haven't done anything yet to the shifting it up to that C-suite, they're whoever they report to is going to be probably probably one of the biggest ones is that component.

Andrea Frederickson: And I'm noticing that leader, especially if they lead other leaders, they give the advice. You need to have that conversation. You need to talk to that person, you need to address that issue. But when they look in the mirror, they would be like, I'm not having that conversation. They wouldn't they don't even recognize that they're not having those conversations. Correct. And so when we talk about these tough conversations, first of all. If you've already identified that it's going to be tough, that's exactly how it's going to come out. Right. And so we've got leaders who are not having conversations such as we just need to get clear on what those expectations are. Two things, such as your performance has been low or not meeting expectations for X period of time, and this needs to change. And that's only that may only be that may be results oriented for the team, but it may also be. You're being a jerk.

Michelle Hill: Yes. Yes. They excuse they make excuses for a person being a jerk. Right. And then they don't they don't address it. And then that's again, that when you think about impact, it's the impact that it has on everyone else. And then it tells everyone else, too, that these behaviors are okay.

Andrea Frederickson: And then they get mad when everybody else is doing it, and then they start talking about it and it's like, that's not leading. Correct. And so just because they're not.

Michelle Hill: Demonstrating, they're.

Andrea Frederickson: Not demonstrating it and people see you're not stepping up and being the leader you need to be. You're not doing your job. So if you're not doing your job, people naturally adjust their behavior. It's like, well. If they're not doing their job, how much of my job do I have to do as well? Or I can get away with it. So another thing that I've started hearing more and more because I'm doing a lot of coaching with senior executives and CEOs, much, much like you and I'm hearing scenario after scenario of let's let's talk about a team of of managers or executives who are. Not getting along well. Yeah, right. I knew you were going to go there on this one.

Michelle Hill: I just had the light bulb. I'm like, Oh, I know. We're just going.

Andrea Frederickson: And. And they're not getting along well. And so we've got one VP talking to the CEO or the president or GM, whatever position that is in your company, right? Or and another person is saying, Oh, so and so is not having this conversation. And literally the CEO will say, Oh, I'll take care of it. I'm like, we teach just some basic supervision, right? We teach this in the situations where if two people aren't getting along, it's like, so what have you done? Correct? And literally, I mean, the same scenario happens with with our our entry level role employees, first line managers, all the way up to the senior executives where they're saying, oh, I'll take care of it. No, the answer is, so what have you done? Yes. And there are points in time where you as a leader have to get involved and be willing to get involved. But what we're finding is that VP level is taking it to the CEO and expecting the CEO to take care of it. And they are.

Michelle Hill: And the director level even. It ripples. It ripples.

Andrea Frederickson: The director. The VP all the way up. Yes. And it's like as a leader. Yes. You have to be willing to do something about that. But you have to allow our VP and our directors to be a little uncomfortable and figure out how to work together, because the consequence is now there's no trust.

Michelle Hill: Well, the consequences ripples really rapidly throughout the organization because now you've created silos. Because when you have a director or VP of a division department, an area, whatever you want to call it, and they're not getting along with their peer. Right, Right. They unconsciously say things and do things that their people pick up on about their frustrations about this person or their people are frustrated and complaining. But because that person's not having a conversation with them, it's still continuing to happen. Right? And so now you've got friction. You're both working towards common goals. And this goes back to our conversations that we have with groups. One team who is your number one team, right? And your number one team. People tend to go to the people who they lead, who they manage, right? Well, no. Your number one team are your peers. You are working really well together towards those common goals, bringing in. But you have to bring your people with you. Right? And that's where it goes back to where you're talking about redirecting. It's about redirecting so the two can have a conversation that don't get along. Let's let's talk about what we what our common goals are working on, what's getting in the way, what are our differences, How do we want to work through that? We don't need to have someone at a higher level come in and manage that conversation, right?

Andrea Frederickson: I literally just this morning saw a meme that had the the top picture was everybody in the boat rowing the same way. One team, right. And the one right below it was three people on each end of the boat. But they were rowing against each other. Exactly. It's exactly what you're trying to do is like you're trying to get one to come over. And so, you know, we have people talking about, oh, conflict management and all that stuff. It's like, wait a second, this isn't about conflict management. This is simply aligning priorities for the company, not aligning company goals for your team versus the other team. Right? And if we're clear on what the priorities are, then we can say, okay, what's the best way to go about this? Understanding everybody's intentions are good.

Michelle Hill: And even going to that next step of, well, when we're both working on these things, on these common goals, how do we maybe get in each other's way? What are things that maybe we're doing unaware of the negative impact that it has on your team? Are we creating more work? You know, and it's about getting it's about demonstrating how to go get feedback and receive it well, right? It's like, help me understand, we'll work on this goal. How do we frustrate each other and how does that impact your team? And let's talk about how we can do things a little differently because they a lot of times people are not even aware that that ripple effect has on others.

Andrea Frederickson: Well, so. Or they don't. True story. I have one VP that went to the other VP and say, Can you believe this is what's going on? This that person, I mean, they're gossiping about the other person and complaining, right? So in a sense, what they're doing is trying to get the other person to side with them on what's going on. And it's like, no, this is this is unhealthy behavior. This is not healthy. This is not behavior that helps the organization move forward. It's it's taking time and resources away from what we're trying to accomplish. Yes. And you and I talk about this all the time. Words matter. And you mentioned earlier where if I'm having difficulty with my co VP or my co director and somebody is complaining about what's going on and I just happen to roll my eyes, right? Again, those aren't the words, but they're going to interpret our.

Michelle Hill: Body language, facial expression. Or I might.

Andrea Frederickson: Say, Well, that's just how they are. We have to work around that. Let's figure out how to work around that. I'm like, No.

Michelle Hill: Now we're teaching workarounds. Now we're teaching workarounds.

Andrea Frederickson: As a leader, we need to be saying things like, What have you done already? What's working? What's not working? How do we move it forward? How do we help the two of you get through this? As opposed to do we need to have VP and VP duke it out? Or do we do we have VP, VP or director versus director? And like, how can we model healthy? Resolution because that's really it's not really healthy conflict. It's about healthy resolution to what we're trying to accomplish.

Michelle Hill: Yes. Because it's not about the past. We get so focused on blaming and complaining and the past when that's not productive, that's moving us that's not moving the needle at all. It's actually probably moving it backwards or losing time. Right. So now we're we are going backwards. It's it's how do we have a conversation about moving forward? Let's understand what when I do X, how that impacts you and let's talk about how we can adjust and do things differently. And that goes back to then who they report to. Are we setting boundaries and expectations of we are one team working together, right? And when one of us is upset or misunderstands or frustrated, we got to go talk to that person. And it's a conversation. It's not confrontation.

Andrea Frederickson: And understand that the end result may not be something that you like, but that doesn't mean that you can't get along and that you don't trust them. It just means the solution that you both agreed on. Yes, is what we're working on and we're not going to make people pay for getting a decision. So in some of our conversations with with leaders, we talk about, you know, is this an avoidant conversation? Is this a, you know, a conversation where we're just accommodating? You know, that's a lose lose kind of thing. And people talk about, well, we'll compromise. It's like compromise means everybody's losing. Everybody's losing a little bit. And we're not talking about lose lose every time somebody might have to give in a little bit or recognize that works may not be my opinion, but it works. Yeah, right. Or truly just having this conversation that says how can we come up with a solution that both that meets both of our objectives. Neither one of us are losing anything. We actually have something better because we're brainstorming and getting out the assumptions that we have about what's going on. Appreciating her certain things that we like about things and not and not just saying, I don't like you, I don't like this. I don't like the circumstance.

Michelle Hill: Oh, well, you just hit another subject. What's that? Let's talk about keeping score. Oh, when we talk about unhealthy conversations or unhealthy environments and then the leaders not really leading is because one of the other things is they keep score. And when we keep score, all I'm doing is looking for every time for you to prove me right because of something you did in the past. And that for the ones.

Andrea Frederickson: That are wrong, right. I'm not looking at the other ones. I'm not looking at the situation where everything's great. No, just the ones that prove my point.

Michelle Hill: Yes. And why you are creating issues, why your decisions are not good, or how they impact us in a negative way, and recognizing having people recognize when they're keeping score, when they're.

Andrea Frederickson: Confirmation.

Michelle Hill: Bias. There it is. There it is. There it is. So what share with you. Let's kind of pull this back around a little bit when we say why are our leaders not leading? That impact. I know we've kind of thrown out various things, but if you were listening, if you were our listener today, what would be maybe the top three things that you should be watching for as you are managing a group of whatever VP's directors. Leader of leaders. Leader of leaders. Right. What are what are some things that I guess two things you should be looking for, but also some reflection on what you've done and maybe haven't done.

Andrea Frederickson: Well, recognizing that as a human, we don't like to be wrong and we don't like uncomfortable situations and we are afraid of making people mad. In some cases right now this doesn't apply to every single person, but those are like, we want to be accepted and respected and liked and things like that. So I think that there's a situation where we're not necessarily leading on purpose. We're going through the motions of, I have to do this, I have to do this, I have to make this decision. I have to make that decision. I have to go through the things. But when things are challenged saying it's like, oh, how can I either push that decision down the road? And so maybe I don't have to make this decision right? I'm avoiding it. Hopefully it'll go away magically. They never do or rarely do, right? So we're looking for our how soon are people recognizing that there is a situation that needs to be addressed, a conversation that needs clarification, a situation between peers that may not be I don't get my way, but it's more of like, I understand why we're going this way and I can I can support you in those things, right? So we're looking for those kinds of things we're also looking for. Such scenarios. Where? Mediocrity has become the name of the game where we're not pushing people forward. We're not challenging people to do the thing that needs to be done. It's feeling like we're just kind of like going along, being along and realizing that underneath the surface of things, things are rumbling. We're starting to see people leave. Are good, people leave are good, people don't stay in circumstances that way. It's the ones that are mediocre that say whatever, it's fine. I'll just talk about them behind their back and looking for those kinds of scenarios where people are. Not doing their job. I guess the other thing that I would say I would look for is as a the most senior.

Michelle Hill: Yes, Yes.

Andrea Frederickson: That people will be bringing you things and or. Like bringing you scenarios like is it truly your job to have that conversation? Is it really their job? Did you delegate the responsibility or help people understand? Their responsibility is to model and do the right thing. That's what their job is. And if you're finding that you're dealing with drama, that means the people that you lead are drama carriers and they can do better than that.

Michelle Hill: Yes. Well, and I would even add the. Also observing are watching for conversations between team members when one seems to always be pushing their agenda and not considering the other person. The other areas agenda where it seems to be very their winning push push and it's not a two way.

Andrea Frederickson: Or the person who comes in after the meeting and tries to negotiate their side of the story with you.

Michelle Hill: Oh, yes, Don't forget that one.

Andrea Frederickson: Right? It's the one that's like, Oh, I'm going to touch base with them outside of this so I can have I can I can help sway that leader's opinion about what's going on. I was like, leader, be careful about what you. What meetings do you take and the conversations that you involved with and not necessarily saying, I completely agree with you unless you completely agree with them, You know, and maybe it's not for you to say, I completely agree with you. Like, what do you think the right thing to do is? Yes, we're talking about integrity here and and looking forward to that. So we're seeing leaders who are not making tough decisions and tough decisions is in the eyes of the beholder. Right. And so people not having the tough conversations with peers, people not expressing what they really believe about a scenario, strategic plan and goals and objectives, things that need to be stopped, things that need to be done differently because of fear of being wrong or not liked. Right? Yes. We also have people who are afraid to have conversations with the employees or their customers. Like I don't want them to go away. If we do this, I'm going to make our vendor mad or I'm going to make a customer go away.

Andrea Frederickson: Or heaven forbid that I make or I upset a key employee. It's like we're not trying to make upset. We're just simply trying to get clear. And the other is. I'm hearing a lot of folks not truly planning and committing to that plan. Now, what I don't mean by once you set a plan, you set it and forget it. That's not what I'm talking about. It is what I'm hearing is we're not going to plan. We're just going to have to see what happens. Like know people need the clarity of where we're going or what what path we're on or what goal we're trying to achieve. It doesn't mean we don't take pauses and say, wait a second. Yes. Are we on the right path? Are the assumptions that we were using still valid? We need to do those pauses and checks to make sure. But I'm also hearing that people are not they're afraid to be wrong in the direction that we're going or afraid to be wrong in the commitment of where we're going. And so they're just like, well, let's just wait and see.

Michelle Hill: Yes, the wait and see. Not having the let's let's let's pull back in. Let's pause. Where are we at? Check those assumptions like you had said. Right. And let's now make some decisions moving forward. It might change. We might adjust a little. We may pivot completely different if we have to. But just taking that wait and see doesn't give you an opportunity to have that conversation. And that's what really.

Andrea Frederickson: So let's just wrap this up. Let's talk about just quickly what what happens. What happens when leaders don't lead? What's the impact?

Michelle Hill: What's the impact? Well, the environment. Right. A negative environment. We lose good people. What's the impact? We don't accomplish our initiatives, our goals, the objectives of what we're trying, what we're trying to accomplish. It can create like a feel like a. Um. Some people might feel feel stalled and not growing, while others may feel chaos. And it's chaotic. And they also don't like the drama. They feel the drama. And some people will not be okay with that at all. And they won't say a word. They'll just leave. Some people may become combative or take sides. So now you have us versus them. You have silos. I mean, we could just. What am I missing? We can go on and on. There's a lot just off those three those three things.

Andrea Frederickson: Three things we're saying. I mean, we could go on multiple episodes with how we're seeing leaders not lead and. You know, I'm noticing people are not recognizing that they're not leading. And so hence, the reason we're seeing more people wanting this individual coaching. I'm struggling. I'm stuck. I've got someone who's stuck. I've got I got people who they've been a leader for umpteen years and they're really struggling right now and they need that help. So leaders out there take an inventory check in the mirror. Are you having the conversations that need to be had with coworkers? Are you making decisions or are you elevating decisions to someone else? Kicking it down the road, hoping it goes away. Avoiding avoiding. Right. And are you truly saying, here's where we're going to go, here's what we're going to accomplish, here's the direction we're going in, why we're going that direction, including people in making those decisions, but also knowing we will have to pause and make sure that we are checking where we're going to make sure that the the assumptions that we're used to make the decision are still accurate because we can only make the best decision based upon the information that we have at that time. I mean, of course. Correct. So thanks for joining us for this episode of The Leadership Hustle. Make sure you subscribe so you don't miss another episode.